Now that I've played a few FTOPS events, I feel qualified to comment on what I've observed since my return to tournaments. My conclusions? Well, read the subject line.

I found a few things stood out as noteworthy in my tournament play this week:

1)People are even worse than I remembered.
2)It's really hard to take advantage of that.
3)I don't have the patience to wait around at a nine-handed table for premium hands, if I think making a move will work.

Unfortunately, none of my moves worked, despite my reads frequently being correct. I busted Sunday's event thusly: Opening with a pot-sized raise on the button with AQ, the BB called. He pretty quickly potted the 652 flop, which I took as an obvious sign of weakness. I called to take it away on the next street. The 8 turn came, he thought for a few seconds and potted again. I had a pot-sized shove left over his raise, so I shoved. He called pretty quickly with K6o. As usual, an expert play on every street that gets rewarded because I'm too stupid to know when people can't be bluffed off garbage.

After piling up some chips in last night's FTOPS I lost about half my stack with AA to A4o (brilliant job defending from an UTG raise and making trips, sir), and then the rest when a loose clown with a huge amount of chips potted 72s PF and I flat called on the button with QQ (due mostly to stack sizes and setting up a good postflop pot size for an overpair). He pot/called the 754 flop and turned a 2.

Sweet.

I busted the 100r event on Saturday by losing three consecutive races, two as the favorite and one as the slight dog (to somebody who called PF with 42s and open jammed two pair on the flop-- I had AKdd on a 542dd flop).

It's just really frustrating playing tournaments. People make so many egregious mistakes, and I seem to have forgotten how to take advantage of them. Either I bluff people who can't be bluffed, or I get outdrawn or lose races. The nature of what it takes to win a tournament is so capricious that I'm not sure I can ever really move back into them. When I'm playing heads-up, I can get inside my opponent's thought process, figure out what he's doing, what his moves represent, and how to take advantage of that on every single hand. In a tournament, I have to cross my fingers and hope I can get in a pot with a donkey, and then hope the donkey puts his money in bad, and that my hand holds when he does. If it doesn't, that's it. I don't get to reload; I don't get another chance at those chips. If I didn't bust out, I have fewer chips to use as a tool, which means my relative EV has gone down too.

I do have one funny bustout story, only funny because of how it happened. I was grinding some heads-up cash and entered the Full Tilt Mulligan on Sunday because I hadn't quite gotten my tournament jones out of my system. I draw a pretty tough table to start so I decide to not get too fancy and wait for a hand. So I'm patiently folding, concentrating on cash, and then I look up and see that I have 2700 chips in the SB, a raise and reraise, 3 cold callers, and AK. So I just said to myself "Well, I'm gonna bust here, but this is standard tournament play, LOL donkaments," and shoved.

The actual action in the hand: shaniac UTG opened for a minraise to 60, and UTG+1 made it 225. SirWatts cold called in MP; two other people called as well. So by the time it got to me, despite two people taking very strong lines, I see a big pot and AK and even if I'm assured to be called I'm getting like 1.6:1 on my money to shove it in here, so I do.

UTG+1 re-shoves pretty quickly, at which point I figure I'm toast, because he must have a big pair and even if I have outs I'm just not gonna get there, because I don't get there. Action goes back to SirWatts who tanks for a long time and then finally calls all-in. The button also calls all-in.

Imagine my surprise when UTG+1 turns over AQs. Watts, as it turns out, was tanking forever with Kings (!), which makes me wonder what would have happened if he actually laid it down. The button has 87s, and given the odds he was getting to go big or go home, I like his play better than the AQs play, anyway. So of course I have two outs and miss and that's that.

I still found the hand funny, which at least, made that the best tournament I've played this month. Unfortunately, I don't play tournaments for amusing bustout stories, so if things don't pick up soon, I might re-retire from them.

We'll see how some more FTOPS events go. I'm skipping Wednesday and Thursday's events, because I put live music over poker, but I should still have time to play a few more and try for that second big score I've been dreaming of.

Doylestown says

Hey bro, you are way too talented a player to give up tournaments entirely. Heads up cash sounds like a great game for you but as with most things in life you will grow bored/tired of it at some point and need a break/new challenge. At a minimum you should keep taking occasional stabs at the tourneys and keep your game sharp. I was away from tourneys for a while myself and am just starting to mix them back in. The play is definitely unpredictable and stupid at times and I might agree there are more donk moves now than I remember there being before. Hang in there nath, talent usually wins out.

-Doyle-

11/14/07

Anonymous says

dude ,you may be a nice guy ,, but my god you are an arrogant poker snob,,,, maybe people play back at you with K6 because of your image ,, and when they flop top pair against you it is gold if they have the right read on you..You dont have to be a genuis to be a good poker player ,, so lighten up... You should know the short term variance in tournament poker ,,and just get it in good most of the time ,,and hope for the best... By the way ,,maybe you misread your donkey with the K 6 ,,, he sure seemed strong on the flop ... Any chance he could have had 77 88 or 99

11/14/07

lakeoffire says

I know poker sucks sometimes, but you know in the long-term you will come out way ahead. I'm sure MTT's will pull you back in again soon. Keep your head up.

11/14/07

Anonymous says

I had the exact same reaction to the K6 hand as anonymous: why would he not think he is good? His pot sized bet on the flop was his "donk" way of saying "don't fuck with me here". His continuation on the turn was his "i am serious".

Why do you think he would fold?


Yes he called your push but it was with good reason and "donk" reason. I don't see how you can deny that.

After review, do you stand by your initial assessment?

11/15/07

sting man (Anonymous) says

I have to agree with the two anonymous comments.. Not sure of your thought process here.. You immediately read him as weak when he fired a pot sized bet on the flop..,, with his top pair ,good kicker,, I can understand on that board not giving him credit for much ,,, but once he fired the second barrel on the turn,, I would think maybe to reevaluate my read,,and possibly give him credit for more than just two high cards that missed.. possibly a middle pair or something of that nature.. And you should well know how hard it is to get someone off a pot ,, once they have bet the flop and the turn..Last I checked you had squattah!! We all take missteps on the felt ,and you are no different,,so lighten up genius !! It wasnt the 1st time,,and I am sure it wont be the last time,,so lets not talk here about how bad your opponents play all the time ,,and lets admit more when we play like a donk!! Isnt it a huge mistake to try to bluff someone off a pot who is unbluffable,,or if you are not familiar with their game,, and isnt it even more difficult once the pot starts to get juicy... Just keep it real my man!! You didnt invent the poker wheel! You just fucked up!! We all do...

11/15/07

burningyen says

I find that MTTs are a lot more fun if you play them as a joke/lottery ticket. Works for me, at least.

Also, sounds like you’re making too many moves based on 2nd-level thinking (what does my opponent have).

Also, run better.

11/15/07

nath says

Okay, wow. Really brought out the haters in force with this one.

Yes, I stand by my assessment of my play and his. Here's why:

First, calling preflop to defend your blind with King Six offsuit is a huge mistake, especially 90BB deep. It's cover-your-eyes awful. I don't think this is interesting to discuss. It's egregious. So he's already made one terrible play; let's examine postflop.

Now, a pot-sized bet on the flop seems strong, and it's supposed to be strong (and in cash games, I usually give bet sizes the most respect as a source of information), but tournaments are so full of donkeys who slowplay and underbet their monsters and pot-bet their marginal hands to "protect" them that I don't respect PSBs the same way. I correctly assessed his hand as weak-- I considered his range to be overwhelmingly a weak one pair hand, possibly a straight draw, and a small chance of a random spazzy bluff.

Now on the turn I shove for a pot-sized bet over him after he has pot-bet twice. In other words, on the surface, it looks like he's showing strength, and I'm saying I'm even stronger than that. All the legitimate hands I do this with have him crushed, especially since he's not even betting with a hand that's strong enough to warrant pot-sized bets; he has second pair, and it's only a pair of sixes. If I have 99+ I'm often taking this line, and sometimes even when I turn an eight.

Of course, none of this matters to him; he has a pair, and he's betting, and calling when I shove, because he has a pair.

Donkeys come in all shapes and sizes. I think my play would have worked in a live tournament. Online, it has less chance of succeeding, because people just don't care about busting out or looking stupid, but it should work often enough that I don't regret it.

11/15/07

lakong says

Nath, live the guy might fold since he has time to take all of what you're saying into consideration and also the consequences of busting live are far worse than online -- he had to drive the the tournament, there are many other options, etc., etc. Online where he has shown strenght twice, has committed a substantial amount to the pot and doesn't have that much time to react it will be a call more often than not.

11/16/07

nath says

My decision was probably influenced by the fact that I'd taken a similar line against another player earlier in the tournament and gotten the result I wanted. That player, however, was obnoxious and talking lots of trash (while being terrible at poker), so it was pretty easy to see that his pot-bets were just a show of machismo.

This guy I had no idea, but I decided to gamble that I could take away a big pot. Unfortunately, I was wrong. The kind of guy who calls preflop with king six isn't folding when he makes any piece of anything.

11/16/07

EdmondDantes says

Couple of things. I don't think you're an arrogant poker snob, but you are probably guilty of giving opponents too much credit for thinking when, in fact, most guys just play their cards. Oddly, enough sometime "just playing your cards as dealt and flopped" works. And when you're on the other side of it trying to make a play, it's a bummer.

In the AQ hand, I'd have taken the view that he hit the flop and was trying to keep me from getting a free turn card. At that point, I'd either fold or if he'd made a weaker size bet, put in a stiff raise. Once he continued on the turn, I'd have been done with the hand. Against someone who's thinking (and I've had a chance to determine that from his showdowns or chat comments) and maybe sitting a little deeper, I like your line, but against most guys firing the second bullet, I'd put my fold equity at pretty much zero. Sometimes the straightforward bet when you have it, fold when you don't strategy is best...until you're at the bubble, up against players who are demonstrably aware, etc. As a general rule, I think most people over-estimate their fold equity viz-a-viz opponents unless the board is horribly intimidating.

Put differently 2nd and 3rd level thinking pre-supposes that your opponent isn't just playing his cards, but of course, that's how the majority of people play. In donkaments, if in doubt, switch your default setting to "straightforward" and your opponent's to "playing his cards". Especially when he fires the second bullet. Most guys CANNOT fire again unless they actually have something. Unless you KNOW he can, assume he can't. Just my $.02.

Nice to have you back posting, btw. Pay the haters no mind. If you're stimulating thoughts and comments, you're doing something right!

11/17/07

stinger says

I think arrogant poker snob may have been a bit strong,, but I do agree with the posts as far as strategy.. My point is this. What we do in a certain situation is so fluid,, based on so many factors,,that I think we have a tendency to criticize our opposition way to quickly based on how we would have played a hand.. That is the beauty of poker,, two great players can take the same hand ,,and take a completely different line in how they play it.. Is one way absolutely better than the other.. Not always.. There are so many factors that make each situation unique... Other than the basic strategy concepts that most above average players already have ingrained ,,, the rest of the game is so much feel ,, and situational analysis,, and how to play a table based on the players tendencies.. That is why I still feel more comfortable in a live setting ..That ,plus the fact that I am an old head...Even with all the info at our disposal we still, even the great players make mistakes , and misreads,, Tournament poker can take you to the brinkof insanity,, just hope you strong enough to survive it ..

11/17/07

Anonymous says

I think you don't play as well as you think you do. Both that AQ float/double barrel hand and the AKo preflop action were about as bad as they come. You're the type of player that shoves PF in $100 rebuy tournaments over and over with 86s just to get your 'gamblin jones', then wonders why he's broke within the year. All the excuses about 'making the optimal read' doesn't change the fact that you are a mid-tier tournament player.

11/28/07

lakong says

another test...

01/02/08

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