A better night

risk2Dupside · 01-19-2009, 07:00 PM

After copping a few sick beats over the weekend resulting in mincashes or bubbling, I had a good run last night - three cashes from five tourneys, including two final tables. The way the 180-max structures work mean that your profits really come from
final table placings, so when I get there I am really trying hard to be patient, pick my spots, attack the right players/flops and place as high as I can so I can hopefully move up levels in a few months.

These tourneys do not require much in the way of fancy play - I find that thinking, ABC poker is all you need. The most crucial elements for success at these levels in my opinion are bet sizing/pot control, which is generally what builds/protects ...

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Aztec122 · 01-19-2009, 08:28 PM

I think you played the bust hand OK until calling the shove. He raised and AK is a very common hand (16 combinations). His raise on the button disguises the hand, but with him raising the short stack, is should tell you he's willing to go all the way since the short stack has no fold equity. With the short stack at 7 BBs, I'd be very aggro with him, but I'd try not to tangle with the BB unless I had a huge hand.

Congrats for 3rd. My best is a 4th (twice) in the 4.40 SNGs.

DeuceSeven · 01-19-2009, 11:08 PM

You pretty much messed up the entire hand. If you think kq is ahead of villain's range and it should be jamming pf or 3 betting to 30k with all intentions of getting it in is the only play unless you have some sick soul read that he has a big big hand. Calling and folding pf are out of the question. W/ 20bbs or less you shouldn't be calling pf except sometimes completing in the sb. It's either raise/fold pf. I don't like your flop bet, it's kind've backwords. What worse hands are going to pay you off? I think checking with the intention of raising is the superior play. You might get your villain committed with AT, QQ, JJ, maybe 99, 88, QJ. By betting you might get a street of value from a worse hand and you're gettin crammed on by hands you beat or hands you're slightly ahead of.

So basically you called with a hand pf that is ahead of villain's range with a stack that shouldn't be calling. Then you took the least profitable line when you flopped top pair.

TroyPercival · 01-19-2009, 11:26 PM

I like parts from both of the previous responses. First of all i agree that since Villan has shown down some good hands in the past and the SB is so short Villan shouldn't be raising very light here. From the second response I agree that the lead on the flop is incorrect, but would still ultimately result in you losing the hand. Thus the disadvantage of calling here OOP. With your stack I think the best play is either a fold PF or 3-bet/fold PF based on the payout structure and SB's stack.

DeuceSeven · 01-20-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyPercival

I like parts from both of the previous responses. First of all i agree that since Villan has shown down some good hands in the past and the SB is so short Villan shouldn't be raising very light here. From the second response I agree that the lead on the flop is incorrect, but would still ultimately result in you losing the hand. Thus the disadvantage of calling here OOP. With your stack I think the best play is either a fold PF or 3-bet/fold PF based on the payout structure and SB's stack.

There is rarely an opponent that is so tight with a big stack 3 handed that shoving kq over a button raise with 20bbs is ever going to be incorrect. Anything else is weak tight scared poker. Leading the flop then folding is also pretty awful. You'd feel pretty stupid when he shows KJ, QJ, AT. 3 bet/folding with kq is also awful. Villain can certainly jam AJ, AT, JJ-55 3 handed.

risk2Dupside · 01-21-2009, 07:03 AM

Hey guys..

I really appreciate the responses. I agree with 27 that I was probably playing weak/scared poker in terms of not wanting to stack off in third tangling with the big stack when second was a virtual certainty. The irony is that three-betting pre virtually commits me anyway, and the way I have typically played these 4.40 tables is to try and win the game post-flop rather than get it in pre. I know there was some disagreement re me leading out, but generally I think my edge in 4.40s is post flop, not pre.

I also agree that the raise was strong given he would be committed to calling a shove with the short stack (a good point I didn't think of at the time). However, lots of players make mistakes like that in 4.40s as well, so I don't know whether you can automatically assume he had a hand from that.

The more I look back at it the more I think with the shorty having <10bbs folding PF was possibly the best option.

Cheers
r2du

01-19-2009, 07:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
risk2Dupside Junior Member Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 8	A better night After copping a few sick beats over the weekend resulting in mincashes or bubbling, I had a good run last night - three cashes from five tourneys, including two final tables. The way the 180-max structures work mean that your profits really come from final table placings, so when I get there I am really trying hard to be patient, pick my spots, attack the right players/flops and place as high as I can so I can hopefully move up levels in a few months. These tourneys do not require much in the way of fancy play - I find that thinking, ABC poker is all you need. The most crucial elements for success at these levels in my opinion are bet sizing/pot control, which is generally what builds/protects ... Read Full Post

01-21-2009, 07:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
risk2Dupside Junior Member Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 8	Appreciate the thoughts.. Hey guys.. I really appreciate the responses. I agree with 27 that I was probably playing weak/scared poker in terms of not wanting to stack off in third tangling with the big stack when second was a virtual certainty. The irony is that three-betting pre virtually commits me anyway, and the way I have typically played these 4.40 tables is to try and win the game post-flop rather than get it in pre. I know there was some disagreement re me leading out, but generally I think my edge in 4.40s is post flop, not pre. I also agree that the raise was strong given he would be committed to calling a shove with the short stack (a good point I didn't think of at the time). However, lots of players make mistakes like that in 4.40s as well, so I don't know whether you can automatically assume he had a hand from that. The more I look back at it the more I think with the shorty having <10bbs folding PF was possibly the best option. Cheers r2du

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01-19-2009, 08:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
Aztec122 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5	I think you played the bust hand OK until calling the shove. He raised and AK is a very common hand (16 combinations). His raise on the button disguises the hand, but with him raising the short stack, is should tell you he's willing to go all the way since the short stack has no fold equity. With the short stack at 7 BBs, I'd be very aggro with him, but I'd try not to tangle with the BB unless I had a huge hand. Congrats for 3rd. My best is a 4th (twice) in the 4.40 SNGs.

01-19-2009, 11:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
DeuceSeven Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Iowa Posts: 43	You pretty much messed up the entire hand. If you think kq is ahead of villain's range and it should be jamming pf or 3 betting to 30k with all intentions of getting it in is the only play unless you have some sick soul read that he has a big big hand. Calling and folding pf are out of the question. W/ 20bbs or less you shouldn't be calling pf except sometimes completing in the sb. It's either raise/fold pf. I don't like your flop bet, it's kind've backwords. What worse hands are going to pay you off? I think checking with the intention of raising is the superior play. You might get your villain committed with AT, QQ, JJ, maybe 99, 88, QJ. By betting you might get a street of value from a worse hand and you're gettin crammed on by hands you beat or hands you're slightly ahead of. So basically you called with a hand pf that is ahead of villain's range with a stack that shouldn't be calling. Then you took the least profitable line when you flopped top pair.

01-19-2009, 11:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
TroyPercival Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1	I like parts from both of the previous responses. First of all i agree that since Villan has shown down some good hands in the past and the SB is so short Villan shouldn't be raising very light here. From the second response I agree that the lead on the flop is incorrect, but would still ultimately result in you losing the hand. Thus the disadvantage of calling here OOP. With your stack I think the best play is either a fold PF or 3-bet/fold PF based on the payout structure and SB's stack.