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Thanks for putting me in the middle of the largest cardroom in the world. I dont know how a trip report could get any more informative and entertaining. Also, sound advice on low stakes cash games. I'll get back to you on how my first "home" tattoo works :).
Edmond, Can I get a big heart on my back with "Mom" inscribed in the middle of it? Just kidding, but that was very interesting. So, you killed the $40max, then moved to $100max, what's next?
I have to give it to you, a better room review, I haven't seen. I can't wait to make my way out to the Commerce and try my luck in the Largest Live Poker room in the world.
Bond...the notable events are the LA Poker Classic which runs from 1/24/08 to 3/5/08, culminating in a $10k WPT event, and the CA State Poker Championships, starting next week. The CA State Poker Champs is the one Ben Affleck won a couple years back. Of the two, the LAPC is probably one you want to play. Figure 700+ entrants for the Main Event and sick cash games for the entire 6-week period. If you decide to play it, reserve the hotel now. The Crowne Plaza (attached to the casino) sells out.
Service is fine; plenty of staff everywhere. Food's a bit better at the Bike and Ocean's but CC's food is better than typical casino fare. Props to the Asian food on the menu. All the So Cal cardrooms have a ton of Asian patrons; as a result, the Chinese, Thai and sushi tend to be pretty good. Oh yeah...and in the high stakes area, it's free!
Last Thurs night around 9p, I headed down to the Commerce Casino to update my LA card room comparison chart and check out the low stakes NL games there. Some of you might not be familiar with the World’s Largest Poker Casino (ok, world’s largest LIVE poker casino) so here’s a quick tour.
The Commerce Casino/Crowne Plaza hotel complex is located directly off the 5 Freeway about 7-8 miles southeast of downtown Los Angeles. The 5 Freeway is a major LA thoroughfare and traffic can be brutal midday, but at 9 pm, it’s a breeze. You can’t miss the casino from the highway—both the casino and the attached hotel are well-lit with excellent signage.
In the satellite image below, you can see the Commerce’s proximity to the freeway and massive parking lot. The hotel part of the complex is the curved building on the left of the property; the main casino comprises the rectangular portion. If you look carefully in the upper right of the parking lot, you can see a N/S tennis court that was built well before the hotel was built. Senior management at the Commerce took their tennis seriously in their younger years!
"Past the chariot..."
As you can see, there’s plenty of free parking on the property, but since I’m lazy I opted to valet (about $2 not including tip). As you enter from the valet, you’re confronted with two oversized statues. I never really understood the Roman/Egyptian theme, but they look great and definitely give the sense of Las Vegas grandeur.
The high stakes room
Directly behind the statues is the high stakes room where all the big games ($10/20+ NL, $20/40 limit, etc.) run. There’s a large multi-screen monitor in a corner of the room, but for now, all the waitlists are managed by hand. I think Commerce is probably moving toward an automated system at some point. The low stakes NL waiting list is automated and there are a number of new flat screen monitors located strategically throughout the other areas of the casino. But for now, it’s white boards and markers in the high stakes and main room.
The main room
Continuing the tour, from the high stakes room, you go through a California games room (blackjack variants, pai gow, etc.) to the main room of the casino where all the middle stakes games are spread. It’s a huge open room with several food court type restaurants around the perimeter. Like the high stakes room, waitlists are kept by hand but there’s a sign up board at all four sides of the room (yes, it’s that big) and there’s floor staff manning the boards and directing players to seats. As a result, there’s rarely a problem finding or getting into the game you’re looking for.
I did a quick walk around to see what kind of action was running. Check this out for a Thursday night…
7 tables of 1/2 $40
7 tables of 2/3 $100
9 tables of 3/5 $200
8 tables of 5/10 $400
6 tables of $10/20 $600-no max
3 tables of $20/40 $2000-no max
1 table of $100/200 $30k-no max (note: Commerce usually has $50/$100 NL with a $5k minimum)
That’s over 40 tables of NL! By comparison, the Bellagio has 40 tables IN TOTAL. Of course, the Commerce spreads all sorts of other games—limit, stud, a MONSTER mixed game ($300/$600 usually and sometimes $400/$800) and a few Omaha games. There are over 240 tables in the casino and I’m guessing about 160 or so are dedicated to poker. They also run daily tournaments and recently began running $40 sit n gos using Lightning Poker electronic tables. More on those later.
”Excuse me, which way to the mini-ballers?”
Checking my bankroll, I realized I was a little light for the $100/$200 NL and made a mental note to put 60-100 dimes in my backpack for my next trip. I’m rolled for $5/10 but, in a rare show of discipline, resisted the urge to grab four stacks of $5 chips and find a seat. Instead, I stuck to the task at hand, namely checking out the low stakes NL action.
Commerce spreads its low stakes NL in its tournament room, located on the 2nd floor in the tournament & banquet area. The room is directly above the high stakes area and is accessible by a wide staircase, which spirals above the aforementioned statues. I’m pretty sure this staircase is the steepest staircase on Earth not associated with a Mayan ruin or pharaoh’s tomb. There’s probably room here to continue the metaphor with some reference to bloody sacrifice, but I’m not a virgin and don’t even know one, so let’s leave it that it’s a climb to get to the room.
I think the 2nd floor location cuts down on the number of low stakes NL and limit tables Commerce spreads. Both Hawaiian Gardens and Ocean’s 11 had more small NL games running, but they were right off the main floor in both casinos and tough to miss. Then again, those guys didn’t have nearly as many of the larger games that Commerce has. Whatever...this place is huge and there's plenty of action for anyone.
The room itself is what you’d expect of a hotel ballroom, high ceilings and chandeliers, with the inclusion of 30 or so tables and a snack bar. To the far right of the room is the cashier and brush area, and there are two Lightning electronic poker tables against the far wall. In the low stakes NL room (seen below courtesy of my lousy cell phone camera), waitlists are kept via an electronic system. There are several other monitors not in use; presumably, these are used for tournaments. The staff does a nice job keeping the lists moving, although I did have to wait about 20 minutes (4th on the list) to get seated in $40 NL.
”I had pot odds!
As with other rooms in the area, small stakes NL at the Commerce tends to be more social than competitive. That’s not to say the players don’t take it seriously—they do. It’s just that the tension, personality clashes and other drama you sometimes experience at higher limits is pretty much non-existent at these levels. Players tend to shrug off bad beats and etiquette faux pas and move on without lingering resentment.
Despite the good intentions of some players, the play tends to range from awkward to poor. Most players have an understanding of what beats what but the insight typically stops there. Of course, players make vocal references to position, draws and odds but more often than not that thinking, as expressed, is WAY off base. That’s not to say that the players aren’t experienced—it’s obvious that many play A LOT. But the references to odds and, specifically pot odds, are often well off the mark and the resulting decisions and stacks reflect it. In short, for a player with solid fundamentals, there’s plenty of equity sloshing around in these games.
It’s interesting how quickly you can assess the table just by listening and watching. Players at this level have no qualms about thinking out loud and recapping their thought process or what they folded after the hand is completed. Of course, in a game of limited information, it’s always best to keep your thinking to yourself for at least two reasons. First, you should avoid giving anyone any edge on how you might play, and second, as Lincoln once said “Better to keep you mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.” In any event, just by watching a few hands and listening to the color commentary, you can get a quick sense of who’s got an idea of what they’re doing.
"Pot odds" is the default rationale for any action in these games whether it’s calling pre-flop or on the flop. Surprisingly, everyone seems to nod in agreement when it happens. I’m not a tank tapper, but I’ll be honest, I’ll throw an “O rly?’ glance around when someone attempts to validate a bonehead play with “I had pot odds!” I honestly think that the typical low stakes NL player really has no idea what his/her odds are in various situations.
My table
My table was pretty standard for So Cal baby NL—mostly younger guys (mid-20s), one or two guys in their 30s and a couple of Asian women…and me, a grey-haired exec—clean shaven, no tats, no surfer brand t-shirt—standing out like Angelina Jolie at a refugee camp.
To my immediate left was a former dealer turned tattoo technician, a skill he proudly noted he learned in prison using a tattoo gun made from a Walkman, guitar string and pencil. He was a nice enough guy, but you have to wonder about someone who discusses his prison stint with a total stranger within 15 minutes or so of introduction. In the off chance I ever end up in prison and get out, I can pretty much guarantee that I’m going out of my way to keep the topic OUT of random conversations. My tablemates will just have to speculate on how I learned to make moonshine and tie a nifty corn row, thank you very much.
In any event, I’m in seat 1, he’s on my left and very active, calling pretty much any raise and limping into any pot. To his left, is a disinterested Asian kid wearing headphones and reading a magazine. To his left is a guy who looked like Ferris Bueller after a few more days off. Seat 5 was an older Asian man. To his left, an older Asian woman, no relation. Seat 7 was younger guy with tats and sideways baseball hat who stood up every time and was visibly excited each time he made a monster hand.
Landlord79 wrote some thoughts on his favorite live tells here...Landlord79's forum post. Here’s mine. When your opponent stands up, insta-calls flop and turn bets each time (as in the instant his opponent said “I bet…” he shouts “Call!” whether it’s his turn to act or not), shoves the river and then shows down monsters each time—two flopped sets and a flopped straight…that’s a good tell to note.
Like all of Commerce's tables, the tables in the low stakes room all have auto-shufflers which keeps play moving. On the other hand, the game is social so there’s more chit-chat, commentary, cell phone play, etc. than in the higher stakes games. To their credit, the dealers and chip runners keep the games moving; I counted 29 hands in the first hour and 31 in the second and, over the two hour period, only saw two hands surrendered without a flop. That’s pretty much standard for what I’ve seen elsewhere in similar games (Hollywood Park: 33 hands/hr; Ocean’s 34; HG 32; etc.). I also noticed that almost all the hands make it to the river. Unlike that larger games where a stiff turn bet will often end the hand, hands here go the whole way. Figure 2-3 hands an hour to NOT make it to the river.
Finally, some hands
I only stayed for a couple of hours but here are some hands that are indicative of the quality of play. I tend to play a TAG style which is markedly different than the prevailing table style—I’d routinely be one of the only players not in the hand. These guys, though, don’t drive all the way from Pomona to FOLD, so you see some real gems.
Hand 1
Older Asian woman in EP raises to $15 pre-flop. Note: the blinds in this game are $1/$2. Tattoo guy next to me, the small blind, states “You’re not going to steal my button.” and calls. She’s at least five seats from him and stealing here never, but he’s defending.
Flop…225 rainbow. Check. Check.
8 on turn. Asian woman checks but pulls a stack of chips from her rack. Tat Guy bets $15 and Asian woman calls instantly.
T on the river. Check. Check.
TG's T8o > Asian woman’s AQs.
Ok, let’s recap…7.5x raise pre-flop. No continuation bet by Asian woman but she’s insta-calling a half pot bet on the turn with A high. And then TG checks his two pair when checked to. Nifty stuff.
Hand 2
Multi-way limped pot. 99x4 flop.
Checked around.
J on the turn. Tat Guy (again the small blind) min bets. Formerly disinterested Asian kid in headphones (the big blind) is suddenly interested and calls. Everybody else folds.
J on river. Min bet. Call.
97o = 92o. Split pot.
Hand 3, in which Edmond dips into the Luckbox
Limped to me on the button with AJ. I raise to $8 and everyone folds around to Asian woman, who calls. The pot ≈ $20.
Flop is Qxx with one heart. AW checks to me and I bet $15 with my A high backdoor straight and backdoor flush draw. She labors, commenting “You so tight! I know you have big pair!” Well, yes, ma’am…thank you…please fold, though. No such luck. She calls.
6 on the turn. She checks to me again. I figure she didn’t like her hand much on the flop so I move in for my last $20 with 9 good outs, maybe more. No laboring now, she insta-calls. WTF, you turn a set, lady?
I’m resigned to calling for the chip runner when the lovely 2 spins off giving me the nut flush. Asian woman triumphantly tables QTo and says “I have queen! If you have three queens you win!” I have no idea what she’s talking about, but show my flush and stack my chips.
At this point, the conversation somehow segues to Tat Guy commenting that 69o is his favorite hand, and when the other woman at the table gives him a disgusted look like he’s a prepubescent teen, he insists that his birthday was June 9th. She’s skeptical and because I’m one to stir things up a bit, I suggest he could confirm it with his driver’s license. "Uh, I don't have one." No, of course you don’t.
Hand 4
As I mentioned in my Ocean’s 11 and Hawaiian Gardens reviews of low stakes games, when players get short, the games play similar to the early stage of a re-buy tournament. For example, a few hands later, AW raised in early position to $10 or so. Short stack in the blind shoves for $20 and change. Folded back to AW, she calls without hesitation. Shover shows A4o; AW shows QJo. A high, all goot.
Hand 5
A few hands later Tat Guy pushes a T high flop for $200 (into a $30 pot) with two players still to act. One caller but Tat Boy’s QT held.
Hand 6, the hand of the night
Ferris limps UTG. Asian man to his left raises to $10. One caller to Tat Guy in the small blind, who again announces “You’re not stealing my blind.” and re-raises to $20. Ferris now re-raises $40, leaving $10 behind. Asian man concludes “I have pot odds.” and calls. Folded back to Tat Guy who now shoves putting Ferris in for his last tenner. Ferris instantly calls, of course, and turns over AA.
There is perhaps no more transparent play in poker than the EP limp and subsequent re-raise. That is, at all levels, almost always AA, KK or AK…with AA, by far, the most prevalent. Yet by for some reason, both Asian guy and Tat Boy concluded that they needed to play in the face of that action.
AA > Tat Guy’s 99 > Asian Guy’s K9s for $250 or so.
AG mucked his K9s and had no obligation to show, but without prompting by any player, the dealer retrieved the cards and opened them for the table, a pretty gross mistake. The Asian guy complained a little but no one else at the table seemed at all fazed by it. In a higher stakes game, guys would’ve been calling for the floor and howling like someone killed their dog.
At this point, Asian Guy stated that “I can’t win at these levels.” and vacated his seat. He’s played about 5-6 hands in similar fashion and reloaded twice. What’s amazing is that no one said anything about his K9s play and when a new player went to take the seat, two players warned him (seriously) that that was the “bad beat” seat.
Hand 7, in which Edmond again dips into the Luckbox
Limped to me, I have T9 on DB and call.
KJ7 flop. $4 bet by some EP player. One other caller to me; I call with my double gutter.
8x on turn. EP better checks and other player bets $4 again. $20 pot at this point with all indications suggesting that my opponents are chasing flushes. I raise another $20 and get one caller.
2 on river and min-better pushes for his last $12. Gross. I’m convinced he hit his flush given his play to the river but call the $12 in what had turned into a $60 pot.
Instead, he shows AJ and looks startled that he didn't scoop the pot. 2PTK no good on that board, sir.
Despite the play, it’s common to see guys sitting relatively deep in a short period of time. I had $100 or so. Tat Guy, despite every effort to stack off with marginal hands, had $160 to my left. Ferris had $240 or so and at least two others were sitting 2x buy-ins.
Hand 8
There is a pre-flop raise to $10 or so with two callers.
786 rainbow flop and three players, including a new older guy sitting in the “bad beat” seat, get all-in for a $300 pot. Q turn, J river. Let’s see the hands, fellas.
TT > 55 > K9 with the old guy showing the K9.
As he packs up to leave, a couple of people at the table again comment on the “bad beat” seat and how “old guys always get it in with draws.” Ouch.
Lightning Poker tables
Toward the end of my session, the floor initiated a new sit-n-go on one of the two Lightning Poker tables Commerce recently installed. These are 10-seat electronic tables which can be use for cash games or single table tournaments. At present, Commerce runs $40 sit n gos ($34 for the prize poll and $6 for the house) and starts the tournament whenever 10 people sign up. Note: on the board, it’s referenced as a $40 mixed game. You can see one in action below.
Players seemed to like the tables, commenting that the play was “fast” and “sit n gos are fun”. Players start with 500 chips and 10/20 initial blinds and level times increase every 10 minutes. Top spots pay in the tournament 60%/40% and the tournaments run about 40-45 minutes. Basically, you’re playing to heads up, chopping for 80% and playing for the balance.
I didn’t play it, but I’m guessing that a player with a good understanding of sit n go fundamentals could beat the game fairly regularly. Imagine Party $5 + $1 sit n gos paying to two spots with worse players.
You can read the Commerce’s press release or some more info on the tables here.
Despite the rake ($3 + 50c jackpot fee), I believe the low stakes NL is a beatable game for a fundamentally sound player. Any time guys are putting capital at risk without thinking and, when they do think, do so OUT LOUD despite a known premium on information, it’s a beatable game. I finished the night up $40 ($20/hour or 20BB over 65 hands or so) without ever being really challenged.
The real challenge, of course, is to maintain discipline and play the opposite style of the table. In general, these games range from very loose passive to moderately loose aggressive without any moderation for hand value. I believe a player that adopts a tight, aggressive style—raising premium hands in position and betting those hands HARD can be a winner in the game.
Of course, it’s very seductive when 6-7 people limp or limp/min-raise/call to get sucked into limping with your 97o. The problem is, of course, that you rarely hit the flop hard enough to have real confidence from the flop and you can end up chasing draws and burning up chips.
Back again for more
On Saturday night, I headed back down to the casino with a friend to get a quick look at the $2/3 100 max buy-in game. This game is spread in the main room and, on Sat night, there were about 10 tables running. I was seated within 15 minutes.
Hands per hour tend to be a little higher in this game as players have a better handle on the game and fewer hands make it to the river. Figure about 35+ hands/hour with maybe 3-4 not seeing a flop and 5 or so not making it to the river.
The players at my table for this bigger game were somewhat more knowledgeable with 1-2 solid players, 3-4 ok players and the balance sort of mediocre. I was the swing man of the group, alternating between solid and mediocre throughout the session.
I finished the two hour session even despite stacking off early with AK on an A high flop versus a turned set of jacks by a short stack and then 4-betting AK into a pair of kings (oops!). I recovered nicely in the second hour getting paid on the last two hands before our table broke with AA v 66 on a low flop and then a set of 6s v TP2K.
There was definitely better play at this table—no ridiculous overbets (other than my 4-bet referenced above), players betting their good hands, more thoughtful reads of the flop. But there was still flashes of dead money including the following:
3-bet all-in and call for $60+ on AQx flop. Players showed 77 and KQo. What?
4-bet all-in and call by the nut flush for $60+ into a $150 pot on a 22588 board. Winner showed an 8, obv.
River re-raise all-in with K9s on AT936 board with three clubs. Winner called $100 with A3o without the slightest hesitation.
”Ok, who ordered the banana splits?”
Tom Wolfe, the author, once described a dinner with Hunter S. Thompson in which the gonzo journalist pulled a marine air horn from a bag and set it off stunning a crowded restaurant. Wolfe recounted another dinner where Thompson ordered two banana splits and two banana daiquiris for his entree. After polishing them off, Thompson called for the waitress and looped his finger in the air. “Do it again.” He downed another round to the disbelief of Wolfe’s wife-to-be and ended the evening, as he did many others, ejected from the premises in a drunken stupor.
When you were at dinner with the doctor, it was an event and, there was really no explanation other than “Well, what do you expect? It's Hunter.” So it is with low stakes NL in Southern California. You’ll repeatedly see behavior and plays that are at best, unusual and, at worst, worthy of open criticism and calls for the floor at higher stakes. But in low stakes NL, even the most egregious poker or social gaffe merits at best a resigned shrug and call for more chips. If you can handle the odd and often deviant behavior, there’s always entertainment and value!
Afterword
1) For those of you who are curious, apparently all you need to rig a homemade tattoo gun is a pencil, a guitar string and old Walkman. I was skeptical of Tat Guy's claim, but a quick search of YouTube shows that he wasn’t kidding. The assembler uses an electric toothbrush in the following video but you get the idea.
2) Tom Wolfe’s excellent piece on Hunter S. Thompson can be found here.
9x4
J
9